Thrown off after nosedive with no pushback warning (nose dive, nose-dive)
[sorry about tl;dr... I am trying to include as much info as possible]
NOTE: There are at least three other threads on this topic:
Home->Technical Support Forum->Pushback on extreme shaping 2.0 not working?
Home->Technical Support Forum->Nose dive in extreme is a problem.
Home->General Discussion->Nose drag
Unfortunately, these threads don't have too many responses in them, and the few there are are somewhat off-topic. Also, none of them mention both "nosedive" and "no pushback" in the title, so I am posting this in a new, unified, thread.
I was thrown off my Onewheel the other day after nosedive (nose dive) in Extreme mode.
I have it on video, including slo-mo. The accident is around 1:45, I included the earlier bits because a] it's fun, and b] it shows I was never getting any pushback.
I'm pissed the video doesn't show the actual board at the time of the nose dive... my whole ride I was doing really nice board+me filming (trying to make a "city riding" post for y'all!), which would have really been perfect for showing the cause, but I was trying to show myself passing those bikes, so I was raising the camera, so it's not as clear what happened, but it is discernable.
It happened while riding in the street in the heart of the Mission District in San Francisco.
I've been riding for a while and this is the first time that has happened.
Though I usually ride with helmet and wristguards because of some of the fall stories I hear on this forum (I don't wear protection on my traditional longboard), ironically, this day, for the first time, I thought, "You know, I've been riding for a long time and have never had that nose-dive situation, so I'm going to ditch the wristguards".
Well, my wrists where fine. My hip and elbow got banged up pretty good and my [new] helmet must have hit because it's got a scratch on it (luckily I was wearing that!)
I let the video have a long lead-in so that you can see:
- based on my math by counting the wheel revolutions in the video, I was going just under 12MPH during the 15sec before the fall (more details of those calcs are with the video, and below)
- there is no pushback (I felt none, and video shows none)
- my foot is well centered on the sensor.
- my foot never moves on the sensor, at all.
- there are no potholes or bumps
- it is a very slight uphill grade.
- battery was almost full, and I rode fine both before and after the failure.
It didn't really feel like the board turned off as much as just dropped its nose. I almost think if I had been expecting it, I could have leaned back fast enough and prevented the nose-dive.
Perhaps it's because I was going up a very slight grade, it just doesn't have the power to cause pushback?
I did accelerate somewhat abruptly while trying to pass (you can hear it), but no more than I normally do.
And, still, after all, why would the board just completely give up?
I took it out again a couple of days ago on a nice bikepath to test it out.
I was riding very cautiously, because I didn't want this to happen again.
The whole ride I never felt pushback.
I was watching the app while riding (and filming) and the fastest I got it to was 12.83, still with no pushback, and I was scared to test it faster because a] I didn't want to fall again and, b] my iPhone did not have a case on it.
I used to get pushback so hard and so often it was almost annoying. And it would always happen right around 12mph.
That was great because I could trust that as a warning.
Now it doesn't seem to pushback at all.
The only thing that changed is that I did ride it on grass recently and had it in "Elevated" mode, then rode it on the pavement in "Elevated" mode (because someone here said they liked that), and then I switched it back to "Extreme".
This ride was then a few days later.
Is it possible that pushback can become completely deactivated in Extreme mode?
I was thinking to test switching it to "Classic" mode to see if pushback in that mode works, but I don't want to do that because in case there is a problem, I don't want to make it go away until @Future-Motion has a chance to look at it and understand what's going on, but I will do another speed-monitored test with more equipment on and my iPhone case.
* Speed calcs, for those interested:
As you can see from the slow motion, there were 84 revolutions of the wheel in the 15 seconds prior to the fall.
So, over the course of those 15 seconds (not necessarily in the final few) I was going :
((35.75(measured circumference) * 84(revolutions)) /12(inches)) = 250 feet. 250 feet in 15 seconds, which is 250/15 = 17feet/sec which equals 11.6MPH
I actually can't tell from the video if you were our we're not getting pushback because many times the board did go back but i don't know if you or the board was causing it....so I'll take your word for it.
One thing is clear, the board did not shut off causing the dive. Instead you can hear the motor straining right before the nose dive. This is something I'm used to hearing as I'm constantly pushing the limits but I'm always thankful when I'm able to balance my way back within what the board can handle. I too though have had several instances where I ended tumbling after a nose dive.
I think this is a complicated subject because the board is highly mechanical and complex but a lot of skill is needed to ride safely at faster speeds. So when you nose dive, was it you or the board at fault? My definition of the boards fault is: deactivating or turning off without the sensor foot moving or leaving the sensor before low battery pushback has happened. If that doesn't happen then it means all other nose dives and spills could have been avoided with better riding skills.
In theory they could have released a board without any pushback and left it to the riders to learn the boards limits and stay within them. While they are trying to help us with pushback, each of us will every so often be in a situation where we need to understand the boards limitations and how to ride accordingly. I'd say riding up hill is a good example because pushback effectiveness is limited because the board cannot accelerate quickly. Last night I did a nose dive going up hill. Thankfully I stayed on my feet but it turned out to be a learning experience as tonight I took it a little more easily going up the same hill.
Sometimes I have these thoughts while riding: what's keeping me from stomping on the front of the board or what would happen if I did? For me I think it's experience subconsciously keeping me from doing something like that but I would imagine for someone with less experience it would be very easy. Anyway, it's an interesting subject.
For sure anyone experiencing defects should stop riding and contact support ASAP. The rest of us need to be careful and try to improve our skills and learn from our spills which is the best way of keeping safe.
Can't tell from watching; not sure what I'm looking for. Hope you're alright!
What do you think about this ?
@Franky you make some good points, but at the same time, if the board is approaching the limits of what it can handle, it should give some kind of feedback (in the past, that's been "pushback" for me). With no feedback it's near impossible to divine that one is at the limits of the board. Even you, with your experience level, spill in a similar fashion. Let's see what @future-motion says.
@Franky also, the only time I see that nose go up is when I'm stopping or slowing down behind a vehicle or passing a vehicle. It definitely doesn't raise as I'm passing that bicycle... maybe I had already "pushed through" pushback (possible to do) by then, I don't know. In the past, when I get pushback it's so severe that it feels like i'm leaning back in "Elevated" mode. That definitely doesn't happen anywhere here, except when I slow down intentionally.
@kbern Only had a quick look at the video (@ work) so not very sure, but for me it looks like the board gave you some pushback several times? 0:55 for example? Or was it you slowing down?
@fabuz that is indeed strange? It doesn't look that way, but is it possible you only touch the board with the side of your footh while making that turn?
I agree with Polle. It looks like way before the dive some pushback where the nose rises slightly and you seem to push through it, riding that out. That's just my initial thought watching the video. What firmware version are you riding? Just curious.
@kbern I've had one single nose dive from when I've gotten my board about 3 months ago. and I quickly found out that the most vulnerable point of the board is acceleration.
If you try accelerating the board faster than it can handle, it will nose dive in some cases.
Ever since that one nose dive (which ended up in me bruising my elbows a little), I've started paying close attention to my acceleration and I've been fine ever since.
If you're saying this happened when you were accelerating to over-pass these bikes, it sort of makes sense.
Basically, While I am aware that this is not scientific and I am merely basing this off of my own experience:
Accelerate gradually. Push too much and it may end up bad ;)
@fabuz looking at your slow-mo you can see that your foot is not touching the pressure pad at the front-end.
This may sometime cause issues where the engine dis-engages as if you were trying to dismount from the board.
This SHOULD happen at very low speeds (in order to dismount from the board), but I've had this happen once or twice at "higher-than-low" speeds, so it may be the same case here, where the board 'thought' you were slow enough to disengage and detected one pressure pad was not pressed, and so it stopped the engine.
This is also supported by the fact you managed to easily recover on foot, which usually does not happen on higher speeds due to the body posture when riding the board (sideways).
It has (fortunately) never happened to me at high speeds.
Hope this helps !
The only time I've had nosedive and been ejected from the board was the first (and last) time I rode in Elevated mode. I was on a golf course with lots of uneven terrain, but the board definitely dived down, but didn't turn off.
I've been riding in Extreme mode on any surface ever since, though I'm not sure they are directly related.
@fabuz your foot definitely tilts forward right before the dive. I'm guessing it was unintentional and if you didn't have video could easily think the board shut off with your foot planted.
Riding last night I wanted to adjust my sensor foot because it was a little sore. The video fm put out shows only one sensor needs pressure to stay activated so you can rotate on you heel and put your toes forward. I've done this before and it worked fine, but there is still a risk I'd do it just a little wrong and nose dive so I didn't do it.
Accidentally pushing through pushback and moving your foot off the sensor are both easy things to do. It's easy to learn basic balancing and think you got it all figured out but you don't.
@kbern 3034 extreme pushback feels more like riding in elevated than pushback in classic. Since you mentioned you attempted to ride elevated mode some, it's possible your perception of pushback has changed. Also when riding street it's very easy to hit top speed and want to go faster when traffic around you is going faster. In that environment it's best to take it easy especially since with street noise your less likely to hear motor noise straining when pushing it. If you are sure your not getting pushback then definitely contact support and wait to hear back.
I don't think an abrupt stop like that should be occurring regardless of why it happened. It needs to be designed in a manner that the board slows down gradually enough to allow the rider to maintain control (if they still are on the board. Even if a person falls off the board, the board should still come to a stop within a certain distance or time, but not immediately). Maybe it is designed that way, and something else is occurring or failing. Even so, it would be best to have a failsafe of some sort where if the board shuts down, etc., the board has a gradual stopping progression.
Curious to hear from FM folks, but I've had nosedive experience too in extreme, with the most recent firmware.
In previous firmware versions two things SEEMED different
- pushback seemed more pronounced
- sounds and vibration were more pronounced
On the first item, I think the more I ride, the more I've subconsciously adjusted to pushback either by backing off or adjusting body position. I just dont notice it nearly as much and I cant tell if this a firmware change or just me.
On the second, this seems independent of any adjustments I might make so I'm sure this is a change. I like the more pronounced vibration and audio more than pushback, but it might annoy folks who want to ride right at the edge.
I'd personally welcome multiple bits of feedback at the limit. The combination of ego and body bruises is never going to be enough to stop me from riding, but it still hurts :)
@kbern hope you arent too banged up.
@T-CAT, onewheel is definitely not for you. Self balancing devices will always include some risk...even Segway as you can see on YouTube.
Skateboards have small wheels and you can easily get thrown by hitting a stick, rock, or sidewalk edge. Snowboards can ride over a lot but it's very easy to catch an edge and go flying. Are these design flaws or just the risk you take when stepping on the board?
HI Franky. I see what you are saying. I snowboard, ski, skateboard, mountain bike, and love sports that have that potential risk. I have broken bones over the years from sports, but wouldn't ever stop doing them because of the risk, as I know risk is involved the moment you participate. I'm okay with that. I would rather have mother nature come into play and throw me off my board unpredictably (skateboard hitting a rock, etc. which has happened to me many times), rather than an electrical malfunction within the equipment. There will be many people riding these onewheels who aren't necessarily experieced with other sports that involve good balance, athletic ability, etc., so it's important for onewheel (FM) to ensure the product maintains its relatively easy to ride manner. It is crucial that the onewheel does not have faults in the system (whether that be firmware or hardware) causing the board to abruptly halt, from a safety standpoint. Mother nature factors are impossible to control and people don't have any issues without.
Don't forget my threads! ( I have 2)
I don't even know when/if push back is happening, the only warning I get is the chirp/buzz at max speeds. With the new 3034 version I can't tell how fast or how near I am to the limit anymore.
I wish I hadn't taken the update, the other day I was able to nose down on take off, not to mention the tail grinding. My board has to go back to FW, it's making all sorts of chirping/virbation noises even at lower speeds and a slight hmming..
Just watched the video, looks exactly like my wipeouts..
It's like the board noses down and HARD STOPS.
I'd rather it keep going at least you'd have an opportunity to save yourself...
Not sure what these guys are seeing in the video about your foot moving, I don't see it and even if it did the board shouldn't shut down down like that. When I jump off cubs or over bumps my foot comes completely off the sensor and keeps going. Even picking up my heal or toes the board doesn't shut off as long as your in motion.
I recently got a second hand one (firmware V.3034, hardware V.2206) And the first time i rode it on extreme mode(idk if its extreme mode 1.0 or 2.0, it dosent state in my app), i felt a somewhat gradual and gentle pushback when going at higher speeds but i wasnt sure if that was the pushback. After i had it fully charged, the next day i went to ride it again and wanted to see how fast this thing could go so i tried to leaned forward more and the next thing i know, i was thrown off the board which resulted in a bad fall with cuts and abrasions. I DIDNT FELT ANY PUSHBACKS THIS TIME, and i just nosedived. The onewheel sites says that extreme mode has no pushback however ive seen some others say on the forum that there is pushback on the extreme mode, so im really confused. The following day, i switched to classic mode and felt a rather more forceful pushback. And when i tried on the extreme mode again i hit 12.5mph and still couldnt felt any pushback and i didnt want to lean forward any further as i dont want to the same situation to happen to me again. I feel that having a little pushback as a warning sign is better than having no pushbacks at all as it sort of cautions you from nosediving. So my main questions are that:
- are there pushbacks on the extreme mode if so how do i set it?
- does the firmware or extreme version have anything to do with it ans how do i update them?
Would greatly appreciate if anyone could help me with this problem. Thanks!
I'm thinking you leaned into it a little to hard..