High Speed Nose Dive in Delirium (WW+)



  • I've read other people having a similar problem. I was riding in a straight line at about 21mph in delirium (WW+) when the nose fell to the pavement and I went flying then tumbled down the road a ways. Road rash and (hopefully just a) sprained knee I'm literally icing as I type appear to be the only repercussions, thankfully. I was able to stay on while the nose scraped a few feet hopefully lessening my speed when I hit the pavement.

    The issue I have is the same as others have had: no warning for the nose dive. I accelerated over-aggressively the other day and did a nose dive, but was able to catch it and lean back before I bit it. It was a learning experience - there's a maximum to how hard you can lean before you nose dive. Ok, good to know the limits there. But yesterday's accident seems to have no discernible lesson: can't something be done about this - like maybe push back at any speed above 10mph before nosediving? Doesn't seem to be any reasonable explanation for a nosedive at any speed at over, say 10mph other than getting off the board, which isn't happening over 10mph.

    One more thing I would add: after learning the point of no return on aggressive acceleration, I wasn't anywhere near this in the fall. Yes, I was trying to push through to go a little faster. But I was doing it gently, and with the same slow push that I always use safely on the WW+ for accellerating - even more gently when I'm already at speed. It was nothing like the other day when I was trying to accelerate quickly and pushed too hard.

    I don't mind the "punishment" for certain bad moves being wiping out. But nose diving as the "punishment" for going too fast appears to be extremely dangerous. It's even less excusable knowing I've gone faster on my WW+, why was this time different? As a personal injury attorney, I'm concerned, lol!

    Any further explication of this problem would be much appreciated. I just don't want a repeat. Cheers.



  • @ninozowi Anytime you push through pushback you are flirting with disaster, you are teetering on the edge, you are dancing with the devil, you are playing with fire, you are cruising for a bruising... you get the point. Sure you might be able to do it for a bit, but the motor is maxed out to provide that pushback. Then when you push through it any little incline, rock, increased acceleration etc is going to cause a nosedive since the onewheel doesn't have any reserve power to keep the wheel underneath you. Pushback is there for a reason and that reason is not to push through it. It is there to let you know you have reached the max capabilities of the board and to proceed with caution. If you don't heed this warning, then you better be prepared for a possible nosedive.



  • @goodblake-eskate I appreciate that. I really do. But I will say this: I didn't even know what pushback was until I called in to CS. I read every word of the manual. And I emailed CS, too, but still haven't received a response for that one yet (been months at this point). Only after extensive research could I even find out about the concept. And now, with ice on the knee and plasma oosing from my hip, I'm being told for the first time that pushback is when the motor is at its max? How can us WWers learn all there is to know about this mysterious concept?

    Don't you think that should be explained somewhere accessible (unless I'm missing something)? Also, I'm assuming you're saying this is only on delirium, because obviously the pushback I get on Sequoia at 8mph isn't from the motor being at its limits. Lastly, are you suggesting it isn't possible for some safety procedure to be built in to the app or board preventing or at least making it much more difficult to nose dive at high speed?

    I know electronic type isn't the best at conveying tone, but I really do appreciate your comments.



  • @goodblake-eskate I appreciate that. I really do. But I will say this: I didn't even know what pushback was until I called in to CS. I read every word of the manual.

    Are you really a personal injury attorney?
    It really shows bad judgement to register for a forum, and in your first two posts, insinuate that a company is being negligent. You should ask your law school for a refund.

    Oh, one more thing. Page 34 of my manual says:

    PUSH BACK
    Like everything in life, Onewheel+ has it limits. Anytime you attempt to go too fast, I send a very steep hill arrived with a low battery, your Onewheel+ will “push back.” In a push-back situation, the nose of the board will lift to slow the rider down. The only way to avoid pushback is to decrease your speed by leaning back. If you like to go a bit faster, you can switch your digital shaping to a more aggressive setting. This will have a higher threshold for pushback.

    WARNING: ignored safety warnings including push back, may result in a loss of control, serious injury, or death.

    Hope that helps. Stay safe.



  • @ninozowi said:

    Don't you think that should be explained somewhere accessible (unless I'm missing something)?

    It says right there on the manual what pushback is and its consequences, as @WheelCity pointed out.

    There is no set speed for push back to happen, also no set speed for when a nosedive will occur. The OW uses the motor to keep you balanced, every time you shift your weight the motor reacts to keep you balanced. If you accelerate too fast, the motor will run out of power to keep you balanced and you'll nosedive. But also, if you are going too fast, even if you are not accelerating, the motor may also run out of power to keep you balanced, and you'll nosedive.

    There is no set speed for a nosedive to happen. It depends on several variables such as rider weight, tire pressure, slope, rider stance, wind, terrain... It'll happen when the motor is using all its resources to counter rolling and drag resistance, and it will not have any resources left to keep you balanced. At this point, it is up to the rider to keep balance, and only the most skilled riders will be able to do that. To know if you are skilled enough, try to balance with your board turned off. If you can't do that for an extended period of time, you are not skilled enough.

    @ninozowi said:

    Lastly, are you suggesting it isn't possible for some safety procedure to be built in to the app or board preventing or at least making it much more difficult to nose dive at high speed?

    There is, it is called push back. On good flat asphalt, with 20psi, and no wind, push back will happen around 15mph to 18mph. If you don't want to nosedive, slow down when you feel push back.

    It is impossible for a self balancing board with one wheel to not nosedive past its top speed. The motor is what is keeping you balanced, if you keep more weight on the front, even after initial push back, the motor will have no other alternative than to keep accelerating to keep you balanced, until it runs out of power, and you nosedive. It is literally impossible to set a hard speed limit to the OW, because the board cannot slow down by itself if you keep more weight in the front. The physics of a self balancing one wheeled vehicle makes it impossible. Note that those Chinese electric unicycles also nosedive at top speed, it is the same principle.

    Note that push back happens before, but not when you are on the verge of nosediving. The board needs extra power to raise the front and push you back. When you are at top speed and on the verge of nosediving, the board is using 100% of its power to make you move forward, it doesn't have anything left to raise the nose.

    When you say that you nosedived with no warning, what you mean is that you got the warning, push back, you ignored it (against the advice from the manual), the push back went away, you probably though that all was fine, since it went away, but in reality you were on the verge of a high speed nosedive.



  • Basically everything @WheelCity covered in his/her post. There's something to be said about trying to assert your professional in a public forum as if to add value to your statements when this is almost certainly a case of user error.



  • Self balancing and motor output have an inverse relationship. As the motor works harder, the self balancing becomes weaker. So at 21mph, the "warning" you're expecting is pretty much too brief for your brain to notice, there simply will be no time to react. The moment your balance stresses the motor too much(at that speed), the nose is already slamming into the ground.

    @ninozowi said in High Speed Nose Dive in Delirium (WW+):

    I don't mind the "punishment" for certain bad moves being wiping out. But nose diving as the "punishment" for going too fast appears to be extremely dangerous.

    ...it's a one wheeled vehicle, how else could it respond when the limits are exceeded? I don't mean to sound condescending, but these are fairly basic physics we're dealing with here.



  • @ninozowi hope you're recovering nicely. Pushback is definitely there in all modes, and if you didn't feel it while in Delirium you may have not noticed the cues, which you'll pick up after riding for a while. You'll also develop more of a feel for your speed, so you'll know when you're reaching the upper limits of the board's capabilities.



  • Watch your speed on the app on a nice stretch of smooth, safe pavement. Focus on the sound of the motor at 15-18 mph, so you know what it sounds like to approach nose-dive territory, and then just chill and don't go any faster. A OW is the wrong type of board for a person who wants to ride at the speed limit of their board and expect it to be safe. Other powered skateboards are fine for that, since they don't need power to balance. The thrill of OW has never been speed for me, it's about medium speed on those windy brick sidewalks, dirt tracks, and taking a shortcut through whatever whenever it presents itself.



  • @wheelcity Are you really trying to insult me over this? Yes, I'm a PI attorney, and I made it clear because I'm being 100% sincere about the problem I'm mentioning. I seem to be healing up nicely, and I have no intention to sue - I love my OW and I like the company who made it, and I take risks by riding it. I accept that.

    But, as an attorney, I can tell you and anyone else reading this would be a slam dunk case for me and any PI attorney in the state I practice in would be more than happy to present a case like this to a jury. I'm disclosing because even though people like to hate PI attorneys, you have no idea how many problems get fixed immediately after the suit is filed. This issue, seems to me to be 100% a defect in design, and although I love my WW and I will keep riding it, there will be a suit about this at some point in time (though not from me over this fall). Explain to me how it is "bad judgment"- I just would like it to be known to WW and everyone that there's what I believe to be a flaw here.

    You point to the manual but it doesn't talk about nose diving. It says the nose will lift, not suddenly drop to the ground at high speeds.



  • @no yes, I get that now. But I wish I had understood how this relationship worked before. And that's exactly what happened, nose dove to ground, I tried to stay on, but couldn't. And don't think you're being condescending. But I'm sure it could be built with some kind of absolute limiter (even though, yes, I'm sure it has to do with weight, speed, terrain, etc.). I'd imagine it could be built so that after a certain degree of lean it leans only gradually. Or perhaps it could have been built so that the front is limited from ever touching the ground. I don't know, but I was first lamenting the fact that although the manual touches on some of these things, they are not explained in enough detail. To put it simply "exceeding maximum speed will result in a nose dive of the board and possible serious injury," even though I would also have loved a little more explanation about the relationship you described. I do see the generic warnings. But if WW knows about nose dives and doesn't mention it I'm guessing it is because they know that by mentioning it they are admitting they knew about it.

    But, again, your comments are very much appreciated.



  • @groovyruvy Thanks, man. I think I'm going to be fine, and it actually feels good knowing that I can take a hard fall and still come through relatively unscathed.

    Yes, I did feel the pushback. And I also pushed through it in Delirium as I had been. I just didn't know that the consequence of pushing through the pushback would result in a nosedive. I'm no longer going to keep pushing so hard, lol.



  • @desperado Thanks for the tip. I've been paying attention to the sound, but I haven't noticed much of a difference at upper limit speeds. I think I'll re-investigate that to see if there's something I didn't notice.

    I actually love the carving feel of weaving on the board through the wide sidewalks and beach roads (where there's not many cars) near where I live. But I can't deny that I like weaving faster than slower! I'm certainly not going to push as hard as I previously was, though.



  • @lirou I disagree. It roughly outlines what pushback is, yes. But it most certainly does not say it will result in a nosedive. Isn't this a conspicuous absence? As I've previously pointed it, I'm sure they don't mention that as it would show they're aware of it.

    You're like the 5th person to explain how the motor works, and I also appreciate that. I'm just saying that I would have liked that explanation sooner, and, also a warning about nosedives. But there is none - again, nothing specific about nosediving.

    I disagree that there could be no limit - I the limit would have to be different depending on one's weight, wind, terrain, etc., - because the app already has various types of limits built into the software. Additionally, THIS motor designed THIS way may not be able to have a hardware limit, but I don't see why physics makes this impossible from what you say. I'm much more peeved, though, that I wasn't aware of the nosedive issue. Actually, I'm not really that peeved - I seem to be healing up just fine, so it's a learning experience.

    I can recall from experience that there was no pushback at the moment of nosediving. It just kind of gave out.

    I admitted more than one time that I pushed through the pushback to go faster, yes. I accept that it was my fault for the accident. And I am aware of the generic warning in the manual, too. But, I keep coming back to the fact that pushback isn't presented as a warning, and certainly not as a precurser to a nosedive. It is presented as description without stating a nosedive is not just possible, but inevitable, eventually.

    Part of my confusion here, too, is that pushback occurs on all the other settings, but not at all as a warning. In Sequoia, for example, which I spent a few days in when I first got the board, you get pushback, but it is not in any way a warning that you're reaching the limits of the board. And I was wholly unable to push through Sequoia very far. So, this pushback as warning is a little ambiguous.



  • @ilovetaeyeon What exactly was the point of your post? Just to try to take a swing at me? Well what does that say about the person who posts only to try to hit someone for no reason?

    Anyway, it was just the opposite of what you say. I've said it before, but this accident was my fault. I take full responsibility. I added that I was an attorney only because I deal with alleged products liabilities and warnings and manuals literally every day. I honestly believe that this will result in a suit some day, and in my opinion it will not be difficult to show OW to be liable. That is the reason I mentioned it.

    I pushed too hard, I've said that. But I was also less informed than I think I should have been. Even after taking a second look at the manual, it is pretty clear to me: If OW is aware that nosedives are the inevitable result of pushing the motor too hard, I think they will lose a suit. More importantly, I just don't want anyone else to nosedive like I did. It's a bit of a catch-22, though, because if they explain it, they show they know about it. If they don't, then they will likely look worse later.

    But thanks for your armchair psychoanalysis of me. It is actually ironic because I don't like telling people what I do for precisely the reasons you point out - at least I don't like when people do what you describe, either. But that's not me, you got the wrong guy.



  • @ninozowi
    Honestly after reading this post I think you need to go take a basic physics course. The only way to stop the nose from touching the ground is to accelerate. Don't buy a self balancing vehicle if you need foolproof safety measures.



  • @ninozowi said in High Speed Nose Dive in Delirium (WW+):

    @lirou I disagree. It roughly outlines what pushback is, yes. But it most certainly does not say it will result in a nosedive. Isn't this a conspicuous absence? As I've previously pointed it, I'm sure they don't mention that as it would show they're aware of it.

    I can recall from experience that there was no pushback at the moment of nosediving. It just kind of gave out.

    I admitted more than one time that I pushed through the pushback to go faster, yes. I accept that it was my fault for the accident. And I am aware of the generic warning in the manual, too. But, I keep coming back to the fact that pushback isn't presented as a warning, and certainly not as a precurser to a nosedive. It is presented as description without stating a nosedive is not just possible, but inevitable, eventually.

    Part of my confusion here, too, is that pushback occurs on all the other settings, but not at all as a warning. In Sequoia, for example, which I spent a few days in when I first got the board, you get pushback, but it is not in any way a warning that you're reaching the limits of the board. And I was wholly unable to push through Sequoia very far. So, this pushback as warning is a little ambiguous.

    @ninozowi The issue with your comments above, pushback is the safety mechanism built into the board by FM to let you know you are at the limit of the board's ability to fully balance you. For arguments sake, let's say at 15 mph 70% of the power is going acceleration and 30% is balancing you. Then's when pushback occurs. If you go to 20 mph you are using 100% of the available power to keep accelerating at that speed and 0% is left to balance you, aka prevent nose dives. *Note: speed & percentages are made up for argument sake.

    In Sequoia, where pushback is set to occur at a lower speed like 8mph, you have 40% of the power going into acceleration and 60% left for balance and pushback, that's why it can come on so strong.

    Since the board has a finite amount of power (battery and motor) when you are at 20 mph you are past the safety warning and there is no "reserve" of extra power to try and save you again. And if there was, you know people would then push to 25 mph through that as well and then post on here they don't know why the board nosedived on them...

    I had 3 months to wait for my board to arrive this spring/summer, so during that time I read a ton on here. There are a bunch of beginner FAQ's and "read before riding" posts as well as a great Wiki page now with a "riding technique" page that everyone should be required read.

    For me its a risk versus reward thing... I have a blast on the board in the 10-14 mph range and don't find those last few mph worth the risk... Plenty of others do and if you have good balance & reactions can ride there all the time. @slydogstroh rides consistently between 20-23 mph but has 6000 miles or something insane on one of these.

    For all out speed, a Boosted Board or Evolve GTX may be a better option but you'd worry a lot more about sticks, rocks, cracks, grass, etc... than you do on the OW. OW has maneuverability, multi-terrain capability and that float feeling you get without a controller in your hand... you kind of become one with the board after a while. It just does what you're thinking.



  • The short explanation of push-back was enough for me to understand the consequences, but I also have a physics degree. I wouldn't expect everyone to get it immediately. A nice big caution sign with a nose-diving stick-figure would help some people for sure: "Riding at high speed increases risk of nose-dive."



  • @ninozowi I am not sure why some people are being so hostile towards you other than the fact that they saw lawyer and immediately got defensive thinking you may try to harm the company we are all so fond of. For their hostility, I apologize as this community / forum is typically really supportive and helpful.

    Just know that pretty much all of us have taken a pretty nosedive or two as we were learning the physics and capabilities of the OW. When I was first learning, I considered selling the thing as I couldn't make heads or tails as to why the nose would suddenly drop without warning sending me bouncing of the pavement. However in posting a similar message to yours, I received some helpful advice that has prevented me from actually hitting the ground as a result of a nosedive ever since. (I certainly had nosedives since, but have either pulled out of them or was able to run them out. )

    The couple tips that have helped me a ton:

    1. Keep your front foot fairly close to the tire. I would say middle of the pad and closer. (The original OW forced you to keep this stance the way the sensors were setup. However with the new OW+, you can put your feet wherever which I believe it problematic for those new to OWs)
    2. Focus on pointing the tip of the board down rather than leaning forward to go. You want to make sure you keep your weight centered to back while riding. This will help prevent and also recover from nosedives.

    Hope this helps!



  • First off, how long have you been riding the Onewheel? Injuries tend to happen within the firs month of ownership. You become very over confident and thats when you go for a dive. I was never aware of pushback until I took my first major dive, after that I was totally aware and noticed when it happens. It actually happens earlier than you think and may feel it at around 15mph, however it's hard to recognize if you don't know what to look for. Also there is a technique of how you want to add pressure to the sensor, check wiki for details. Also has to do with stance and the more wide your stance is the more work the motor has to do to keep the nose up. At 21mph your asking for it, even a slight weight shift and your going down so at those speeds you need to be in a very athletic mindset. Hope you heel and get back on the horse!


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