Allowable topics/posts - FM Policy?
I think the "battery upgrade" posts and mentions are being deleted because they directly compete with the new XR board. It allows someone who already has a V1 or Plus to upgrade their board and FM loses out on forcing people to buy a new board. It's good for them but bad for the consumer. FM really doesn't want any competition in their space.
@rado - which is understandable, if not great (there're a lot of us who feel a little let down that we bought our +'s shortly before the XR was announced, and as far as anyone can tell there's going to be no upgrade to the + possible, or any discount if we want to get an XR, either of which would be nice, though not required).
But I'm not sure why "Fangs" would be getting caught up in that. As far as I can tell, FM is in a bit of a bind here (everything that follows is my own speculation): if they host a lot of talk about nosedives, and products to help with that, then they risk people associating nosedives with their product and that translating to "hmmmm, OWs are dangerous; maybe I should get a more standard electric skateboard instead".
But if they squelch these products/posts and the OneWheel keeps growing in popularity (and now that the XR has solved "range", I expect it will), a lot of people are going to nosedive and injure themselves (mostly through their own errors/inexperience, but that doesn't matter in terms of public safety perception), and that will look bad for FM too.
In any case, I think they need to decide now how they want to handle all this, and generally, transparency is the best bet.
IMO, the fangs need to be re marketed as a product that will allow users to do tricks easier foremost and say it may also mitigate very rare nose dives. Post up cool videos providing examples of this and eliminate any nose dive focused videos. I bet FM won't delete it then.
Some new prospect buyer will see the flights fins and float plates as something cool that will allow them to take the onewheel to the next level. This may actually have the buyer buy the Onewheel more.
The way fangs are marketed now a new prospect buyer will see and prevent them from buying the onewheel because it's prone to crashes and injuries.
I'm not supporting FM's antics but I have a feeling this is the reason.
This is my opinion.
FM just informed me via chat that commercial posts of any kind are not allowed, for products or otherwise, on the forums. So there you go. Half of all topics here are likely in the crosshairs.
Huh. Somehow the Flight Fins "Flight Fins Store is Open! Time to Fly!!" commercial post is still up though??
Mmm hmmm....even though it's explicitly stated by FM that jumping your board or "doing tricks" voids your warranty.
Why not just make one section "commercial posts" and let users post their inventions? Have a sticky at the top that says "this section not moderated by Future Motion, proceed at your own risk". OR something similar? Many sites do this.
The OneWheel invites makers by it's very design and history of being created by makers and featured on Kickstarter.
re marketed as a product that will allow users to do tricks easier foremost
Ooof. I get why they'd want this, but man, they are asking for trouble in my opinion.
Look at it this way: on the one hand, they want to emphasize people pushing the limits - jumping, doing cool tricks, putting up their top speed records on the app leaderboards - all of which, let's be honest, is going to result in the occasional injury.
Then you've got someone saying, hey, here's a product that I think could help make the product a little safer in some instances under fairly normal everyday use, and THAT raises their antennae? It'd be better to market Fangs as something that lets people do more tricks (which are inevitably gonna result in some busted asses?)
I dunno man. If I were FM and looking at this whole thing from "how can we minimize our chances of ever getting sued?", you might want to play DOWN the "daredevil" aspects, which a savvy lawyer could use against you.
I was just saying. Look how much Jeff M, I think he owns floatplates?, promote the onewheel life. Flight Fins as well and craftnride. They are all over social media promoting Onewheel and this is free marketing for FM. This helps sell the Onewheel. More FM sells benefits everyone that owns one as they won't go belly up and have us end up with products that gets no technical support or firmware upgrades.
I fell of my bike many times but never thought about suing the maker of my bike. I don't see how FM is liable for people crashing and getting injured unless they can prove without a reasonable doubt that the board malfunctioned. I highly doubt anyone can.
Look at the formal response they gave to hoovdini. They are off the hook and if anyone argues hey why are these products still here. FM can simply answer, we're short handed and dropped the ball in deleting the posts. Sorry?
Remember, this is their forum and they can do whatever they want.
This is not a conversation about morals or ethics. If you want to promote your product here, learn to play the game. Trying to fight what a lot of people think is right is not going to get you anywhere.
And honestly, I have the prototype fangs but I haven't nosed dived in months. Honestly, I'll be just fine without one. Just don't do over 15 mph and be smooth with your controls on the board. Hence the reason for re marketing the product.
With all that said, I personally like to see the fangs being on the forums so that more riders can be aware of the product. I'm just suggesting what I think will allow it to co exist with the float plates, flight fins, craftnride fenders and etc......
You're right on all accounts. I never made these wheels to combat any board "malfunction". I made them because I thought I had gone up a hill too steep for the front of the board to clear the incline - and of course it was user error, just like 99.9% of these nose-touchdown events.
However, it is possible to touch the nose to the ground in certain situations, as we all know, and this is part of normal riding. Especially for those of us near 200lbs+. Sometimes, on slick pavement, you just ride it out, but other times, the pavement really grabs that front bumper and stops fast.
The Fangs just allow you to touch down and then keep going by drastically reducing friction at the front. Therefore I will not market this as a preventative measure against a board failure, but rather against user error (ie, too much weight on the front, regardless of hills / speed / etc). No amount of motor power could keep the nose up indefinitely - I think all the experienced riders get that. So when you as the rider goof up a bit, these can help.
That said, I do agree I should maybe pivot the marketing message a bit. On flat ground, I can push the nose down and ride it about 3-4 feet before it picks up again. I'm going to try to get video of me going up a steeper hill, however, by pushing the nose down and then keeping it there by standing on it, and roll right up the hill like that. Since the front foot is still on the sensor, it should just keep going. Might be a cool looking trick and worthy of YouTube views.
@mrclowny You make good points, and I'm not trying to argue with you, it's just - like, I hopefully will never need the airbags in my car, either, if I keep to the speed limit, stop at every stop sign, and do everything right, every day, every time, and never make an error.
But one day if I don't (or something unexpected happens), I'll be glad of having an airbag. The airbag isn't there for me to do tricks, it's there to help keep me from getting too badly injured when something DOES go wrong, regardless of whose fault that was.
@mrclowny The guy who developed the battery upgrade discovered his board was nosediving from voltage drops (nearly lost half power) during spikes of high motor use. Tested two other boards and they had the same voltage problem. With his two battery system he found the draw from the motor was more consistent and did not result in a voltage drop large enough that would cause the motor to cut out. Has not had a nosedive related to the motor since his upgrade. I would be interested to see if a brand new + also suffers this motor killing voltage drop, or if it was just his older battery, but his math and testing show it’s likely the former. This would mean there is an inherent time when under stressful conditions the stock battery can’t cut it and the board nosedives as a result of mechanical failure. I’m hoping FM’s claim of 10% more torque because of the larger battery in the XR solves this voltage drop issue.
I feel like a large capacitor (or more than one) in line with the battery could also help (instead of using another entire battery to increase capacity). We use these capacitors all the time in high powered RC stuff so that the motor isn't starved for power during high powered maneuvers. Essentially it's like a small storage tank for charge that is constantly filled, but when the motor asks for too many amps or there is voltage sag, the capacitor releases it's energy quickly to "fill in the gaps" for power delivery. I'm sure there are some already in the board, but I wonder if more / higher capacity ones may also make a difference.
FM is removing all posts about two-x and fangs products? It does seem like the common factor there is nosedive mitigation. Interesting.
@ventoriffic If this is in fact true (that the voltage can drop enough to cause nosedive during spikes of high motor use), then it kind of changes the narrative around the "accelerated too fast from dead stop" nosedive a little bit, from "you clearly ignored pushback, you dink" (I and a few others who have presumably gotten nailed with this one, report feeling no pushback), to "the design or implementation of the board's systems allows this sudden deviation or failure point in its normal response/feedback/behavior curve to occur".
It'd be like if there was a new car on the market and when you got it between 20-25 MPH, there suddenly wasn't enough juice for headlights, or the brakes locked up.
We wouldn't chastise drivers for failing to work around the problem by keeping under that speed range, or being careful to push through the range gradually; we'd demand the automaker fix the flaw, because that's not how the car's systems are supposed to work.
In any case, I'm with you in hoping the XR's add'l torque helps with these or similar issues. Will be eagerly awaiting feedback from people who went from + to XR.
@glyph Fully agree with you and would like for Soren to put forth his testing prowess so more people can see if their boards also carry this fault. Are you part of the facebook groups? I'm not sure which one, but the thread is some 500 comments long. Just search for "Soren" in within the groups, he'll have a line through the "O" in his name. While the whole thread is interesting, you only really need to read his posts and findings. Also check out the FAQ of the TwoX website. The manner in which he approached the problem and solution was practical, easy to read, and supported by his electrical engineering knowledge.
The issue was found in the 3 boards he tested, all of whose riders had sworn their board failed for no reason whatsoever. IIRC, when designing his battery he calculated the stock battery may not have enough juice to handle draw properly. Put his theory to test and boom, found the voltage drop.
Where's the info removed from http://community.onewheel.com/topic/7647/nosedive-mitigation-wheels-aka-fangs-are-now-available-for-order/17 topic? Thanks!
@roninxpl sent you a PM
@hoovdini I opened up the controller board on one of my OWs, and found two 60v capacitors. I asked an EE friend of mine about them and he said they were probably for cleaning up the current. I am not an EE, but my first thought was 'these are what provide the 'surge' in the OW+'
I'd love to see the controller board of the V1. If the V1 doesn't have those capacitors, then I would think they are, indeed, what they use to prevent some nosedives.
FM is deleting all my posts now, including my recent post about the Flex handles I'm offering. From now on I will not post anything new here and instead will use the Facebook forum. I'm done with FM.