High Speed Nose Dive in Delirium (WW+)



  • Self balancing and motor output have an inverse relationship. As the motor works harder, the self balancing becomes weaker. So at 21mph, the "warning" you're expecting is pretty much too brief for your brain to notice, there simply will be no time to react. The moment your balance stresses the motor too much(at that speed), the nose is already slamming into the ground.

    @ninozowi said in High Speed Nose Dive in Delirium (WW+):

    I don't mind the "punishment" for certain bad moves being wiping out. But nose diving as the "punishment" for going too fast appears to be extremely dangerous.

    ...it's a one wheeled vehicle, how else could it respond when the limits are exceeded? I don't mean to sound condescending, but these are fairly basic physics we're dealing with here.



  • @ninozowi hope you're recovering nicely. Pushback is definitely there in all modes, and if you didn't feel it while in Delirium you may have not noticed the cues, which you'll pick up after riding for a while. You'll also develop more of a feel for your speed, so you'll know when you're reaching the upper limits of the board's capabilities.



  • Watch your speed on the app on a nice stretch of smooth, safe pavement. Focus on the sound of the motor at 15-18 mph, so you know what it sounds like to approach nose-dive territory, and then just chill and don't go any faster. A OW is the wrong type of board for a person who wants to ride at the speed limit of their board and expect it to be safe. Other powered skateboards are fine for that, since they don't need power to balance. The thrill of OW has never been speed for me, it's about medium speed on those windy brick sidewalks, dirt tracks, and taking a shortcut through whatever whenever it presents itself.



  • @wheelcity Are you really trying to insult me over this? Yes, I'm a PI attorney, and I made it clear because I'm being 100% sincere about the problem I'm mentioning. I seem to be healing up nicely, and I have no intention to sue - I love my OW and I like the company who made it, and I take risks by riding it. I accept that.

    But, as an attorney, I can tell you and anyone else reading this would be a slam dunk case for me and any PI attorney in the state I practice in would be more than happy to present a case like this to a jury. I'm disclosing because even though people like to hate PI attorneys, you have no idea how many problems get fixed immediately after the suit is filed. This issue, seems to me to be 100% a defect in design, and although I love my WW and I will keep riding it, there will be a suit about this at some point in time (though not from me over this fall). Explain to me how it is "bad judgment"- I just would like it to be known to WW and everyone that there's what I believe to be a flaw here.

    You point to the manual but it doesn't talk about nose diving. It says the nose will lift, not suddenly drop to the ground at high speeds.



  • @no yes, I get that now. But I wish I had understood how this relationship worked before. And that's exactly what happened, nose dove to ground, I tried to stay on, but couldn't. And don't think you're being condescending. But I'm sure it could be built with some kind of absolute limiter (even though, yes, I'm sure it has to do with weight, speed, terrain, etc.). I'd imagine it could be built so that after a certain degree of lean it leans only gradually. Or perhaps it could have been built so that the front is limited from ever touching the ground. I don't know, but I was first lamenting the fact that although the manual touches on some of these things, they are not explained in enough detail. To put it simply "exceeding maximum speed will result in a nose dive of the board and possible serious injury," even though I would also have loved a little more explanation about the relationship you described. I do see the generic warnings. But if WW knows about nose dives and doesn't mention it I'm guessing it is because they know that by mentioning it they are admitting they knew about it.

    But, again, your comments are very much appreciated.



  • @groovyruvy Thanks, man. I think I'm going to be fine, and it actually feels good knowing that I can take a hard fall and still come through relatively unscathed.

    Yes, I did feel the pushback. And I also pushed through it in Delirium as I had been. I just didn't know that the consequence of pushing through the pushback would result in a nosedive. I'm no longer going to keep pushing so hard, lol.



  • @desperado Thanks for the tip. I've been paying attention to the sound, but I haven't noticed much of a difference at upper limit speeds. I think I'll re-investigate that to see if there's something I didn't notice.

    I actually love the carving feel of weaving on the board through the wide sidewalks and beach roads (where there's not many cars) near where I live. But I can't deny that I like weaving faster than slower! I'm certainly not going to push as hard as I previously was, though.



  • @lirou I disagree. It roughly outlines what pushback is, yes. But it most certainly does not say it will result in a nosedive. Isn't this a conspicuous absence? As I've previously pointed it, I'm sure they don't mention that as it would show they're aware of it.

    You're like the 5th person to explain how the motor works, and I also appreciate that. I'm just saying that I would have liked that explanation sooner, and, also a warning about nosedives. But there is none - again, nothing specific about nosediving.

    I disagree that there could be no limit - I the limit would have to be different depending on one's weight, wind, terrain, etc., - because the app already has various types of limits built into the software. Additionally, THIS motor designed THIS way may not be able to have a hardware limit, but I don't see why physics makes this impossible from what you say. I'm much more peeved, though, that I wasn't aware of the nosedive issue. Actually, I'm not really that peeved - I seem to be healing up just fine, so it's a learning experience.

    I can recall from experience that there was no pushback at the moment of nosediving. It just kind of gave out.

    I admitted more than one time that I pushed through the pushback to go faster, yes. I accept that it was my fault for the accident. And I am aware of the generic warning in the manual, too. But, I keep coming back to the fact that pushback isn't presented as a warning, and certainly not as a precurser to a nosedive. It is presented as description without stating a nosedive is not just possible, but inevitable, eventually.

    Part of my confusion here, too, is that pushback occurs on all the other settings, but not at all as a warning. In Sequoia, for example, which I spent a few days in when I first got the board, you get pushback, but it is not in any way a warning that you're reaching the limits of the board. And I was wholly unable to push through Sequoia very far. So, this pushback as warning is a little ambiguous.



  • @ilovetaeyeon What exactly was the point of your post? Just to try to take a swing at me? Well what does that say about the person who posts only to try to hit someone for no reason?

    Anyway, it was just the opposite of what you say. I've said it before, but this accident was my fault. I take full responsibility. I added that I was an attorney only because I deal with alleged products liabilities and warnings and manuals literally every day. I honestly believe that this will result in a suit some day, and in my opinion it will not be difficult to show OW to be liable. That is the reason I mentioned it.

    I pushed too hard, I've said that. But I was also less informed than I think I should have been. Even after taking a second look at the manual, it is pretty clear to me: If OW is aware that nosedives are the inevitable result of pushing the motor too hard, I think they will lose a suit. More importantly, I just don't want anyone else to nosedive like I did. It's a bit of a catch-22, though, because if they explain it, they show they know about it. If they don't, then they will likely look worse later.

    But thanks for your armchair psychoanalysis of me. It is actually ironic because I don't like telling people what I do for precisely the reasons you point out - at least I don't like when people do what you describe, either. But that's not me, you got the wrong guy.



  • @ninozowi
    Honestly after reading this post I think you need to go take a basic physics course. The only way to stop the nose from touching the ground is to accelerate. Don't buy a self balancing vehicle if you need foolproof safety measures.



  • @ninozowi said in High Speed Nose Dive in Delirium (WW+):

    @lirou I disagree. It roughly outlines what pushback is, yes. But it most certainly does not say it will result in a nosedive. Isn't this a conspicuous absence? As I've previously pointed it, I'm sure they don't mention that as it would show they're aware of it.

    I can recall from experience that there was no pushback at the moment of nosediving. It just kind of gave out.

    I admitted more than one time that I pushed through the pushback to go faster, yes. I accept that it was my fault for the accident. And I am aware of the generic warning in the manual, too. But, I keep coming back to the fact that pushback isn't presented as a warning, and certainly not as a precurser to a nosedive. It is presented as description without stating a nosedive is not just possible, but inevitable, eventually.

    Part of my confusion here, too, is that pushback occurs on all the other settings, but not at all as a warning. In Sequoia, for example, which I spent a few days in when I first got the board, you get pushback, but it is not in any way a warning that you're reaching the limits of the board. And I was wholly unable to push through Sequoia very far. So, this pushback as warning is a little ambiguous.

    @ninozowi The issue with your comments above, pushback is the safety mechanism built into the board by FM to let you know you are at the limit of the board's ability to fully balance you. For arguments sake, let's say at 15 mph 70% of the power is going acceleration and 30% is balancing you. Then's when pushback occurs. If you go to 20 mph you are using 100% of the available power to keep accelerating at that speed and 0% is left to balance you, aka prevent nose dives. *Note: speed & percentages are made up for argument sake.

    In Sequoia, where pushback is set to occur at a lower speed like 8mph, you have 40% of the power going into acceleration and 60% left for balance and pushback, that's why it can come on so strong.

    Since the board has a finite amount of power (battery and motor) when you are at 20 mph you are past the safety warning and there is no "reserve" of extra power to try and save you again. And if there was, you know people would then push to 25 mph through that as well and then post on here they don't know why the board nosedived on them...

    I had 3 months to wait for my board to arrive this spring/summer, so during that time I read a ton on here. There are a bunch of beginner FAQ's and "read before riding" posts as well as a great Wiki page now with a "riding technique" page that everyone should be required read.

    For me its a risk versus reward thing... I have a blast on the board in the 10-14 mph range and don't find those last few mph worth the risk... Plenty of others do and if you have good balance & reactions can ride there all the time. @slydogstroh rides consistently between 20-23 mph but has 6000 miles or something insane on one of these.

    For all out speed, a Boosted Board or Evolve GTX may be a better option but you'd worry a lot more about sticks, rocks, cracks, grass, etc... than you do on the OW. OW has maneuverability, multi-terrain capability and that float feeling you get without a controller in your hand... you kind of become one with the board after a while. It just does what you're thinking.



  • The short explanation of push-back was enough for me to understand the consequences, but I also have a physics degree. I wouldn't expect everyone to get it immediately. A nice big caution sign with a nose-diving stick-figure would help some people for sure: "Riding at high speed increases risk of nose-dive."



  • @ninozowi I am not sure why some people are being so hostile towards you other than the fact that they saw lawyer and immediately got defensive thinking you may try to harm the company we are all so fond of. For their hostility, I apologize as this community / forum is typically really supportive and helpful.

    Just know that pretty much all of us have taken a pretty nosedive or two as we were learning the physics and capabilities of the OW. When I was first learning, I considered selling the thing as I couldn't make heads or tails as to why the nose would suddenly drop without warning sending me bouncing of the pavement. However in posting a similar message to yours, I received some helpful advice that has prevented me from actually hitting the ground as a result of a nosedive ever since. (I certainly had nosedives since, but have either pulled out of them or was able to run them out. )

    The couple tips that have helped me a ton:

    1. Keep your front foot fairly close to the tire. I would say middle of the pad and closer. (The original OW forced you to keep this stance the way the sensors were setup. However with the new OW+, you can put your feet wherever which I believe it problematic for those new to OWs)
    2. Focus on pointing the tip of the board down rather than leaning forward to go. You want to make sure you keep your weight centered to back while riding. This will help prevent and also recover from nosedives.

    Hope this helps!



  • First off, how long have you been riding the Onewheel? Injuries tend to happen within the firs month of ownership. You become very over confident and thats when you go for a dive. I was never aware of pushback until I took my first major dive, after that I was totally aware and noticed when it happens. It actually happens earlier than you think and may feel it at around 15mph, however it's hard to recognize if you don't know what to look for. Also there is a technique of how you want to add pressure to the sensor, check wiki for details. Also has to do with stance and the more wide your stance is the more work the motor has to do to keep the nose up. At 21mph your asking for it, even a slight weight shift and your going down so at those speeds you need to be in a very athletic mindset. Hope you heel and get back on the horse!



  • @goodblake-eskate said in High Speed Nose Dive in Delirium (WW+):

    1. Keep your front foot fairly close to the tire. I would say middle of the pad and closer. (The original OW forced you to keep this stance the way the sensors were setup. However with the new OW+, you can put your feet wherever which I believe it problematic for those new to OWs)

    Why do you recommend front foot close to the tire? What is the benefit?



  • @sfctac As others have mentioned, the further your foot is from the tire the more power needed to keep you upright. So benefits 1. more power to be applied to speed versus keeping you upright 2. less likely you will have a nosedive as it requires less power 3. more likely you would be able to pull out of a nosedive or run it out as your weight is further back rather on the front edge.



  • @goodblake-eskate
    Great tips. I've been trying to do #1 when I remember, but #2 I think is what I need to focus on more. I had my first nose dive yesterday (2-month owner of the OW+) and I'm convinced that in my attempt to accelerate quickly, I missed the pushback altogether. From a stop to the dive, I think I only traveled 30 ft, but the OW got up 18.5mph before it cut out. I've been on the forums daily and have read everything on pushback and nosediving. I've been pretty good about feeling the pushback and laying off but the second you lose some focus, the OW will humble you. I was able to walk away with only a sore neck and some bruises (biggest bruise was to my pride), but now that I've gotten my first nosedive out of the way, I'll be more focused and will hopefully be able to recognize and run it out next time (although hard because I am usually in dress shoes on my way to work).



  • @clevemont Yeah I know the feeling. I wear a suit to work everyday and ride the onewheel to work everyday. However I almost always wear skateboarding type shoes then change once I get to work. I do this to feel more comfortable and to limit the wear and tear on my dress shoes.



  • @goodblake-eskate I actually am considering maybe changing up the shoes. Got a nice scuff on these 5-year-old dress shoes yesterday. I also put a hole in my pants right near a belt loop, scuffed up my leather belt, and got a lot of dirt on my back which everyone at work proceeded to point out to me all day.
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  • @clevemont Oh man that is brutal! Yeah I just got a backpack that has a section specific for shoes in the bottom. I just put my shoes and charger in my bag everyday and head on. Its more comfortable and ultimately easier than dealing with riding in dress shoes and having to deal with keeping them clean or maintenance if you get scuffs like that.
    However these minor inconveniences would never convince me to start driving again. I try to avoid the car at all costs and gotten to the point that I hate when I have to drive somewhere.