XR - thrown from board after pushback



  • I didn't call it a nosedive for a reason. I just had a bad fall two days ago and calling it a "nose dive" could bring some subjective interpretations (my reasoning below). Nothing broken I don't think, but two days later I still have a hard time breathing (bruised rib/lung maybe) and my arm road rash will be probably take at least 3-4 months to heal. Had a short sleeve shirt on.

    Here’s my details:

    XR on Delirium, ~130 miles
    Hardware 4208
    Firmware Gemini – 4134
    Started riding at 56% battery about 10-20 minutes prior, after accident battery was at 51%
    Flat ground, brand new asphalt, 160lbs rider, rapid acceleration as much as motor could do, thrown almost immediately after pushback occurred.

    Whether I wanted to slow down at the pushback or not, I wouldn’t have had much time. I might’ve accelerated past pushback to around 20mph (didn’t have a new high speed) and the board threw me off. The board stayed turned on, but it basically reset and went back to the neutral braking position… if you try pushing the board with your hands while it’s on, the motor doesn’t really let it roll. It’s almost like a brake, and this is the setting that it defaulted to while I was riding. If the board truly shutoff, the wheel rolls better and I might’ve had a chance to have a controlled bailout or a skidding stop like a traditional skateboard. Instead the wheel locked up and dropped anchor. Naturally it nose-dived, but to not mislead anyone, it’s not like the motor caused the nose to tilt forward. The motor locked up, then my body weight caused the nose to dip. I was in so much pain that I wasn’t going to be able to carry the board back home to where I had some medical gear, so I took a chance by riding it very slowly back home (100 yards) and it worked fine.

    I would be happy to go back riding if I knew what the heck the board was doing, but until I understand this manic depressive machine I’m very hesitant. Why did it reset while in motion? FM advertises 19mph top speed and the pushback occurs at 15mph. I don’t believe I exceeded those tolerances, but clearly accelerated too fast for it.

    Why wouldn’t the software be written to turn the machine off completely if certain tolerances are exceeded so we have a fighting chance with the wheel in neutral?
    Why not have an auditory alarm for such instances about to happen?
    Are the foot pads glitching? I’m confident my foot was on the pad.

    Claiming that pushback is a warning is hogwash. FM advertises a top speed above pushback and I was in the ballpark of the top advertised speed. If you were driving in your car down the highway that is advertised to be able to handle 80mph, then at 80mph the airbag blows up in your face, the car company would be panicking to fix the issue. I’ll contact FM, but after reviewing all the forum comments they seem to be pretty mum on finding a fix.



  • pushes past hardware limitations of board, blames board and company for own mistake

    You even said you were going almost 20 mph in the post. IMO any speed above 15 is just asking to get hurt. The board didnt just "lock up" on you, the motor was accelerating to the max, and you pushed it further, so you ended up just leaning yourself into the pavement.

    Pushback is the only warning available. If you read the manual you can see that they advertise that pushing through pushback is not advised, and to do at your own risk. They acknowledge the limitations of the board, why dont you?



  • Top speed =/= cruising speed. FM advertises the onewheel can hit 19mph. Not that it can sustain 19mph or that it's safe to do so.

    A safe speed for cars is a lot less than their top speed. Same with a onewheel, for safe operation you should't be going near the top speed.



  • @DoubleDown said in XR - thrown from board after pushback:

    rapid acceleration as much as motor could do

    The motor needs to do TWO things - accelerate per your instruction, AND try to keep you upright. When you do "rapid acceleration as much as the motor can do", you've left nothing in the tank for it to help balance you with.

    Gentle acceleration. Always. I know you think the OW "locked up" on you, and I don't want to say that's impossible (software or hardware failure is always possible), but IMO it's far more likely that you simply overwhelmed the board's ability to do both things at once that it needed to do, and forced your nose down to ground.

    The instant that happens (without nose wheels like Fangs or similar), yes, the board stops immediately, and you get thrown. But not because the wheel locked up on you. If the board was still on afterwards (and you say it was) what I describe seems far more likely to me.

    I know I'm not telling you what you want to hear. But I had what I think was a very similar accident at 250 miles. I messed up my shoulder bad and it's still not 100% healed over a year later. (I got back on the horse as soon as I could though).

    I do agree that pushback is not very useful in this scenario (overacceleration). It's much more useful when you're already cruising and nearing max safe speed and you can use it as a cue to back off.

    But the board is not magic - you outweigh it, by a LOT, and can easily overleverage it - and in an overacceleration scenario (even well below 15 MPH) you can push past pushback faster than pushback can push back (say THAT ten times fast). You'll never feel pushback, or even if you do you'll have no time to react.

    Accelerate gently/smoothly, always. Bring your front foot back toward the wheel. Make sure you always keep your weight centered above the wheel, or even just behind it. Don't "lean" to go; instead press down the relevant leg and lift the other, while still keeping your weight centered above wheel.

    The margins between "OK" and "Not-OK" are very, very thin on a one-wheeled board.

    Heal up soon!



  • @Glyph Nailed it!



  • I’m clearly to blame for pushing the limits, but ~4 yrs running I think the company can do more to address these nosedives people keep having. That’s the point I’m trying to highlight. I slid further face down on the asphalt than the board ghost rode after me. I felt it lock up. It definitely didn’t go into a safety-neutral mode or have any fail down measures (fangs could be a fail measure to help add milliseconds before an accident which could mean the difference between a broken bone or not). I’ll be picking up a pair of those now to buy me an extra split second.

    I operated the board within speed parameters that I had operated prior (show me in the manual where it says the rapidness of acceleration will exhibit different symptoms than speed). The manual talks of speed limits and I was within what I had experienced before. I’ve operated the board at a higher speed on the same flat surface so I thought I was safe. My learning process of the TORQUE limits are unmentioned in the manual, essentially leaving riders to discover torque parameters on their own. Sure, in hindsight it’s easy to say ‘Well, duh, the machine can only do so much,’ but this is an amazing piece of machinery that seems highly capable. Having gone faster on the board before, I was lulled into a false sense of being within known performance.

    Never stop innovating if a problem seems to recur. I see it as a cop-out to say ‘we put a warning sign to not speed’ so our work is done here. Everything has an evolution in safety. Automobiles, aviation, manufacturing machinery, etc all has limits and on the edge of those limits it’s not enough to say ‘human error or judgment pushed the machine to its limits, so tough noogies, let the next person get hurt too.’

    I’m sure it’s perfectly clear that I’m frustrated in having spent $1,800 on a machine which has constant Bluetooth connection issues, the occasional end of riding (when going to turn off the OW) and seeing a message on my phone about the footpads not sensing anything for the past ~30 seconds while riding, and after learning the hard way about torque limits it seems like these date back to the OW Original without apparent alterations from FM.

    Am I blaming the company for my fall? No. I am saying that it APPEARS to me after researching to understand my fall, that speed and pushback warnings are treated as a catchall which includes torque. I’m saying more can be done to help the next person, which isn’t asking too much of an $1,800 piece of machinery which such high safety implications. A person paying $1,800 isn’t going to be so price sensitive that an extra $20-40 to redesign a speaker/auditory alarm into the next model would prevent a purchase. Just an example.

    It's an amazingly engineered board that provides an amazing riding experience. I applaud everyone who has been involved in FM, but call me crazy for thinking more can be done after my hindsight learning process. I’m sure I sound crazy to many folks here who think the OW has reached a pinnacle of perfection.



  • @DoubleDown said in XR - thrown from board after pushback:

    I slid further face down on the asphalt than the board ghost rode after me.

    That's because the instant your foot came off the front pad, the OW DID lock up (brake the wheel), because the board stops when you come off it. That's what it does to prevent it from rolling away downhill. That's its version of a "deadman switch".

    I'm sorry, I know what you think you felt, but there's a YouTube video out there where a guy does some quick napkin calcs on how quickly the nose can drop down from level to pavement, and it is tiny - TINY - fractions of a second. A nosedive happens FAST. Faster than a human can easily perceive it if you're the one doing it, especially if afterwards you are hurtin' for certain.

    You're going through exactly what I went through (boy oh boy do I identify with the "lulled into a false sense of being within known performance" bit.) I share your hope that FM will continue to improve these machines, because they are amazing. They feel like magic and that fools us into thinking they are. But they are still just complicated levers, subject to physics.

    Think of two people arm-wrestling (you're one person, the board is the other) - you might strain against one another for seconds, even minutes, appearing to be evenly matched, but when the breaking point comes, when one side can't hold the other's "push" and leverage back any more, the end happens quickly and it's over.

    You outweigh the board, by a lot. You "beat" it, by "attacking" it quickly and overwhelming its reserves of strength.

    Unfortunately, the nature of THIS contest means that the pavement will always win in the end. Overacceleration can be thought of as fighting the board. Work with the board instead. It WANTS to keep you upright.

    Definitely get the Fangs (I did). Like you, I suspect they would have bought me a little time to AT LEAST bail better, if not recover entirely. (My friend who has them on his board has actually ridden out three nosedives on them, staying onboard and bringing the nose back up to continue riding).

    Again, I know this isn't what you want to hear, because it's not what I wanted to hear. But since I've learned to watch my acceleration (and this is harder than it seems to always remember - sometimes when you look down an intersection and see a car coming, the urge to scoot across quickly to beat it is very, very tempting. Don't give in to that temptation, unless you want to be lying in the street in front of that car), it - knock wood - has never happened again.



  • @DoubleDown

    Also if you haven't read this before, worth reviewing: https://onewheel.wiki/Riding_technique

    I believe there are other restrictions at play here. OW+ & XR have a 750W motor, I believe in Cali if it's 1000W it changes to a different category of vehicle. Similar to the speed thing. Talented rider like Stroh do 25 mph on the board all day w/o issue but anything over 19mph also changes the class of vehicle.

    I could see a larger motor in the future but with it still being a motorized balance board, you should still defeat it. So if a larger motor was put in place AND the current pushback "enforced" harder, people would complain. The board could have more torque to fight you if you wanted to exceed 15 or whatever mph. But people would then push it to 30 mph (guessing) instead of 20 mph and STILL be able to over power the board.

    I could see an audible beep helping some folks but if you're pushing hard, you'd hear the beep at the same time you're hitting the pavement. As long as there was an option to turn off the noise I could support this. The OW is really about the ride and terrain vs speed; completely possible to spend an afternoon at 10 mph tearing up tough trails and have the best ride of your life.



  • @Glyph said in XR - thrown from board after pushback:

    @DoubleDown said in XR - thrown from board after pushback:

    I slid further face down on the asphalt than the board ghost rode after me.

    That's because the instant your foot came off the front pad, the OW DID lock up (brake the wheel), because the board stops when you come off it. That's what it does to prevent it from rolling away downhill. That's its version of a "deadman switch".

    I'm sorry, I know what you think you felt, but there's a YouTube video out there where a guy does some quick napkin calcs on how quickly the nose can drop down from level to pavement, and it is tiny - TINY - fractions of a second. A nosedive happens FAST. Faster than a human can easily perceive it if you're the one doing it, especially if afterwards you are hurtin' for certain.

    You're going through exactly what I went through (boy oh boy do I identify with the "lulled into a false sense of being within known performance" bit.) I share your hope that FM will continue to improve these machines, because they are amazing. They feel like magic and that fools us into thinking they are. But they are still just complicated levers, subject to physics.

    Think of two people arm-wrestling (you're one person, the board is the other) - you might strain against one another for seconds, even minutes, appearing to be evenly matched, but when the breaking point comes, when one side can't hold the other's "push" and leverage back any more, the end happens quickly and it's over.

    You outweigh the board, by a lot. You "beat" it, by "attacking" it quickly and overwhelming its reserves of strength.

    Unfortunately, the nature of THIS contest means that the pavement will always win in the end. Overacceleration can be thought of as fighting the board. Work with the board instead. It WANTS to keep you upright.

    Definitely get the Fangs (I did). Like you, I suspect they would have bought me a little time to AT LEAST bail better, if not recover entirely. (My friend who has them on his board has actually ridden out three nosedives on them, staying onboard and bringing the nose back up to continue riding).

    Again, I know this isn't what you want to hear, because it's not what I wanted to hear. But since I've learned to watch my acceleration (and this is harder than it seems to always remember - sometimes when you look down an intersection and see a car coming, the urge to scoot across quickly to beat it is very, very tempting. Don't give in to that temptation, unless you want to be lying in the street in front of that car), it - knock wood - has never happened again.

    I've read so many post here and on other forums from riders asking for a software or another fix to reduce nosedives. I have almost no experience with only 19 total miles, but as a retired mechanical designer, I don't understand why they haven't added 'fang like' wheels built into the board themselves. I read someone claim they can't do it because it's an admission they made a mistake and it'll open them up to lawsuits.

    I don't understand why this would be different than making any other product safer. I can't imagine car companies were sued for adding seatbelts or other Improvements. What am I missing?



  • @sdonewheel

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed

    "Unsafe at Any Speed: The Designed-In Dangers of the American Automobile by Ralph Nader, published in 1965, is a book accusing car manufacturers of resistance to the introduction of safety features such as seat belts, and their general reluctance to spend money on improving safety. It was a pioneering work containing substantial references and material from industry insiders. It was a best seller in non-fiction in 1966."

    This is not to say FM is doing that, but just to point out that there is precedent for claiming that manufacturers don't want to spend extra money on safety features, and they don't want to draw attention to the inherent, inevitable dangers of their unique product.

    There are as I understand it several arguments against nosewheels. I will disregard out of hand the aesthetic ones (though, let's be honest, that's a factor - one reason Fangs took off as quick as they did is because they worked, while being fairly unobtrusive).

    I will also disregard the pervasive tough-guy nonsense that refers to them dismissively as "training wheels", when really they are much more like airbags - they (mostly - see below) don't affect your ride at all, they are just there in the event of error or accident to help minimize the damage to the vehicle's occupant.

    Arguments against nose wheels:

    1. They do slightly reduce under-deck clearance. They have to, so as to contact ground first and roll. If you ride mostly off-road (where they are near-useless anyway), or if you dip your nose down really low when turning or doing tricks, they could catch on the ground and put you down unnecessarily. This seems a fully valid concern, depending on your ride style and preferred terrain.

    2. If you nosedive going downhill, some theorize it could be better to just go ahead and go down now, rather than have Fangs or similar keep you rolling and speeding downhill on an out-of-control board. Personally, I'm skeptical of this one; based on my downhill skiing and snowboarding experiences, even if you are temporarily out of control, in my experience it's almost always better to hang on just a little longer if you can, since there may be flatter, easier terrain just ahead/below where you can recover, or at least execute a more controlled fall. But I don't live in a hilly place, so I could be wrong about this one, and a lot would depend on particulars (maybe it's better to fall now, than to enter an upcoming street intersection).

    3. If you mount the board and the motor is not engaged, nose wheels can cause the board to shoot out from under you, backwards. Similarly, if you are riding on it and nosedive and DON'T stay on the board, instead of inevitably going off the front of the board (where you may run it out or tuck and roll), nose wheels may keep the board rolling and it squirts forward, while you land on your butt/back. I don't really know how to quantify this one, I think a lot depends on how you go down and what your weight/fitness/gear/terrain is. Going off the front results in a lot of broken shoulders/collarbones/etc. because your entire bodyweight tends to land on your shoulder or arm. Landing on your back is certainly no fun, but the impact is distributed across a wider, flatter surface, and as long as you are wearing a helmet to protect your skull (you should!) and don't land ON something like a parking block or curb, you'll probably just be sore and maybe have the wind knocked out of you. (Though, you could break your tailbone - ALSO no fun.)

    If FM believes that nosewheels are more danger-causing than -preventing, then they won't (and shouldn't!) offer them as a factory option.

    But I think Fangs have proved themselves more helpful than not in the conditions I ride under. Honestly, the only thing I'd do to improve them would be if there was some way to make the wheels into balls that could roll ANY direction instead of just forward - that way, if you did catch them sideways on a nose-dipping-low turn, they wouldn't stop you, just roll.



  • @sdonewheel I think it's because they'd have to rename it to the ThreeWheel then! :D



  • @Glyph Beautifully said. Fangs aren't for my riding style, but I can see the use for them.



  • @Glyph

    Just asking, but what’s the fastest nosedive the fangs have saved you on?

    The other argument against them is people potentially not learning (or respecting) the limits of board due to confidence they can’t go down. From a momentum standpoint, I’m not sure anything can help in a higher speed dive. Also, if you’re not on smoother pavement, I don’t have faith in any wheels.

    That said, everyone should completely do whatever they want to their board and whatever keeps them riding! No hate, just think there is risk is selling a product that may only work under certain circumstances.



  • @skyman88 - I actually have never hit mine yet, and frankly hope never to do so. It's my friend's experience that gives me some confidence they'd (probably) do what I wanted them to in an overacceleration nosedive on pavement, because that's how he did his - things like trying to cross an intersection too fast, or a sidewalk/sloped gutter/street transition.

    Fangs are very, very clear on their site about the fact that they won't/can't save you in all circumstances, and the faster you are going, the less likely they'll save you.

    I'd be with you on the "learning" aspect, except a broken shoulder like mine, that lost me six months' riding and will probably be messed up the rest of my life, is a pretty high price to pay for a "lesson", from a single nosedive (it's literally the only one I've ever had, knock wood), at 250 miles in. And it could have been worse. What if I didn't have the insurance to help take care of that? What if my job wasn't the kind of job where not being able to use my left arm for nearly a month could be worked around, or if I didn't have friends and family to help me during that time?

    Sure, it took my friend three nosedives to learn the "lesson", whereas it took me one. But which one of us came out ahead there? I lost a LOT of ride time (he lost none) spent a lot of money, and have a permanent injury.

    Am I a better rider than him now? I doubt it. Frankly, I've never FULLY regained all the confidence I had before the nosedive.



  • @skyman88 By coincidence, here's a Reddit thread that I just saw with people talking about their experiences with them. At least among the respondents, consensus seems to be "they work" - meaning, they might save you entirely, or they might buy you a critical bit of reaction time so your fall is less painful than otherwise.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/onewheel/comments/aodweb/just_gave_my_ow_a_make_over_was_a_bit_hard_cause/



  • @DoubleDown First, to the statement "the motor locked up": this is a common misinterpretation of the OW giving 100% but being asked more than 100% which allows (not causes) the board to tilt forward. Bar some severe defect that would occur at any speed, the board does not "lock" under stress. Bonks are a function of this. By putting the board under stress then deweighting, the motor continues to give 100%, springing the board upward along side the effects of bounce. Without the deweight a bonk would be a nosedive. Seeing as you were using a high level of acceleration at said speed you should have nosedived so I'll just operate under the assumption of a typical nosedive. Why is simply a function of acceleration. As glyph said, use gentle acceleration (and of course don't hit any bumps, go uphill into the wind etc).

    Have you ever asked yourself how pushback works? Think about how the OW keeps your nose up under normal circumstances. It is simply an effect of acceleration. As the board accelerates and moves faster than your body, two things happen. A: Your position in relation to the OW changes and re-centers you. B: The force applied by the motor to roll the tire forward has an equal and opposite reaction on the board, which forces it to twist in the opposite direction, lifting the nose and pulling the tail down. When pushback occurs, generous leeway must be present in the board's capacity to accelerate. If it is not, the board will slam on the gas (in addition to you already slamming on the gas) and actually take part in causing the nosedive itself. Also, your acceleration can mask the pushback and cause it to become weakened or unnoticeable. Pushback cannot assist in acceleration based nosedives, those that are caused by the environment or battery. It will only help if your speed is the ONLY problem.

    The auditory warning may not work as well for the OW as many may believe. The idea sounds great if we relate the OW to the EUC. The EUC has much more leeway than we do. Because it does not suffer from the lever effect, the battery doesn't become noticeably weakened as quickly nor does it nosedive as easily. The auditory alarm could be set to 15 mph in an attempt to precede nosedives and even then, it wouldn't always. We are always much closer to the limit on a OW than we think we are. The beep would have to occur much earlier and more often than that of an EUC (the frequency of which would have to parallel the difference in nosedive frequency between the OW and EUC, which is massive), would become a nuisance, and would likely cost FM money. I used to think that would be a good idea but let's be honest, the air around the OW would sour as this machine becomes associated, not only with nosedives, but also with constant, nonstop beeping.

    If software were written to turn the board completely off, 99.9% of us would nosedive 100% of the time when said limits were reached, causing more nosedives than are already happening. Offroad rides would become virtually impossible, killing at every bump. Bonks will become a thing of the past, throwing us off instead of launching us into the air. The board continues to give 100% till the last moment because that is the best chance of survival for the VAST majority of us.

    Yes, FM's massive ad campaign has probably given many new riders the wrong impression about this board. If you want speed, you still want an electric skateboard. They have done a top notch job designing this rideable and there's not much more they can do at this point. The OW is king of 180s, 360s, bonks, drops, burnouts and pretty damn solid for carving. Going over 15 mph is still "sniping with a shotgun". If you want to snipe, the tool you will need is a sniper rifle, not this shotgun.



  • @Glyph I've "used" my fangs twice. Once when accelerating to try to cross an intersection (so from a dead stop) and once when slowly going uphill. Prior to installing them, I experienced both a low speed, quick acceleration nose dive (mostly embarrassment and road rash) and a high speed (21 mph) nose dive where I don't think the fangs would've helped at all, nor do I want to find out (major road rash including the knuckles on my left hand, bruised hip, sore shoulder)! I now keep my speed at a max of around 15 mph to help prevent the second type. Both times I've engaged the fangs I got "oh no!" feeling that I know I would've been on the ground without them.

    My riding is pretty much pavement and relatively smooth hard packed dirt, so no crazy trails or tricks where the fangs might get in the way.



  • @Glyph Great reply!

    I totally get where you're coming from and again, think everyone should do whatever they want with their boards. Sorry to hear about your injuries... and sounds like they have been a great investment for you and your friend.

    The argument has always been if you put fangs on day 1 and hadn't done any research, would you push the board even more? No one can answer that one for sure. But I am baffled why folks care if you have fangs or drive safe, or the CarbonSmith bumpers, or glyders or Sonny's new front wheel system. Just ride your own board the way you like and enjoy it.

    The frustration comes in from people saying "FM designed the board to shut off and eject the rider". I'm not sure that's a true statement, it is a motorized balance board after all. FM does not do a good job really explaining limits or usage to people when they buy, most of it comes from social media.

    As long as you enjoy your board, who cares what it looks like or what mods you have done to it.



  • @skyman88 FM's in a tough position, talking TOO much about nosedives is certainly not what they want to do. But this very thread, which you've seen repeated in some form or another probably dozens or hundreds of times, is the inevitable result.

    Pushback is a great nosedive warning - IF you're already cruising at speed. For overacceleration nosedives, pushback can be pushed through so quickly as to be imperceptible. I certainly never felt it on my nosedive, even though I had felt it on rides prior to my nosedive, and I have felt it on rides since.

    Really, I'd like to see the dialogue around nosedives get a little more creative and nuanced, so people's thinking around them would be a little clearer and more nuanced.

    You know that old saying "it's not the falling that gets ya, it's the LANDING?" So too with "nosedives", even though it's a helpful and catchy term. The board's nose dropping isn't what ultimately gets you hurt, it's catching an edge (the board's nose) on the ground that does it, as the board immediately stops and you get thrown.

    You know how snow skis and snowboards and water skis have that little curl-up on their noses? They have that, to prevent you from catching that edge on the riding surface - so that the ski or board keeps on "sliding", even when its nose comes directly in contact with the riding surface.

    Pavement isn't water or snow. It doesn't "slide", not easily. So nosewheels transfer that friction-reducing "slide" function to themselves. But the basic principle at work is exactly the same.

    Would you get on specially-designed snow skis or a snowboard without that curl-up in their nose? Sure, if you're REAL careful and always ride "correctly" and never fail to spot some bit of problematic terrain, you might be able to avoid ever catching that edge and faceplanting, hard. But why would you take that chance? The risk of serious injury's not worth it.

    The way to become a better rider, is to learn the board's limits. But the thing about learning where the limits are, is that you can never learn them until you actually cross them. If crossing them almost automatically means a high risk of serious injury, that becomes a problem for learning to be a better rider.

    My friend nosedived three times, scared himself each time, and learned the lesson. But he walked away from each of those nosedives with just a scare, not a permanent injury. I think his additional ride time, plus the confidence to "explore" the limits probably puts his learning experience ahead of mine.



  • @Glyph Agree on all fronts... except for high speed nose dives. Unless you reaction time and body position are just right, there is still a good chance you will end up on the ground. Maybe front wheels give you a better chance of getting back down to a "run out speed", but momentum is not on your side for high speed issues.

    Inclines and over acceleration are definitely the two easiest and lowest speed ways you can have a nosedive. Don't think the manual really covers those enough for people to ride with caution.

    I just put @jeffmccosker V3 Float Plates on last week. They now wrap up and around the bumper, who knows, maybe that will save me in the future. Either way people should do what they want and not care, it's a fun toy, enjoy it.

    PS: You in any of the FB groups?


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